The Lord Of The Rings. Would Saruman have been able to defeat Sauron? This is the real reason the eagles question will never die: Its too appetizing for The Lord of the Rings fans. Elbereth Vala Varda said: Saruman fell to darkness regardless. Will to conquer all life in Middle-earth was the last bit I believe. Did Peter Jackson take inspiration for Gollum from "Dracula 1931" movie. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. On the surface, Saruman seems like one of the simplest Lord of the Rings characters to define. He and his servants already knew of his involvement in the attack on the Fellowship and the capture of the hobbits. Why are trials on "Law & Order" in the New York Supreme Court? These are not some sort of machine gun, or beam weapon that is just leveled at the enemy, by anyone who happens to wear them. What happens next? Although Saruman had selfish motives, he didn't expect to fall so deep . One can imagine Was he not already the warlord of a growing realm, a commander of orcs and men? His three friends were smiling at him, but Gandalf was only managing an embarrassed smile towards the Lady. So if Saruman mastered the Ring, he would become the next Dark Lord of Middle-earth. Two Maiar duking it out at their full strength would have brought ruin to much of Middle-earth, and that was exactly what the Valar had hoped to avoid in the first place. Tolkien said of Saruman, also known as Curumo: The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. The cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Necessary". In the chapter "the White Rider" (LOTR Book 3, chapter 5), shortly after Ugluk's foray has been defeated, Gandalf gives a detailed analysis of Saruman's motives and Sauron's concerns. Even still, Frodo set the benchmark for hope and volunteered to take the One Ring to Mordor, where he destroyed it and saved the world from disaster. In Middle-earth history, it seems likely Saruman arrived before Gandalf did. His actions were more indirect as his decision was of non-action in not taking Frodo to Minas Tirith. But opting out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience. If you know how to use it, its an *extremely* powerful magical artifact. What If SARUMAN managed to get his hands on the One Ring and how that . In fact, he had started searching for the One Ring (and found Isildur's remains) well before the events of The Hobbit. The White Wizard put Isengard at Sauron's disposal until his armies were defeated at Helms Deep and his staff was broken by the resurrected Gandalf. The greatest act of disobedience in LOTR had possibly the greatest consequences which in the end saved the Quest of the Ring and saved Middle-Earth that being Eomer's act of disobedience. Advertisement cookies are used to provide visitors with relevant ads and marketing campaigns. Did Aragorn ever offer the ring to Frodo? When the White Council was formed around T.A. Hes of the same order of beings as Sauron, so he certainly has enough power to effectively use the ring. If you preorder a special airline meal (e.g. When he saw Aragorn marching on the Black Gate, he was afraid. The chapter is a partly published version of a manuscript now held at the Marquette University (MSS 4/2/31-37); [1] other parts of this manuscript and a time scheme have been included in The . Gandalf wasn't even sure if he would be able to break his staff in The Return of the King, and that was a very weakened version of Saruman. With the more powerful becoming all the more corrupted. Lucky hit or not, he was vulnerable to a mere sword with no great magical ability or anything displayed that showed the ring as some huge magnifier of magical ability. Analytical cookies are used to understand how visitors interact with the website. First its a lucky hit, now its a super-human with a magical super-sword? Courage to ones fellows, hope in adversity, and comfort to the suffering were the powers enhanced by the three. I know Letter 246 says Sauron himself did not fear the Ring, would not have hesitated to confront a Ring-wielding Frodo, and could easily have forced Frodo to hand the Ring over. Their power was in preserving and healing the hurts done to the earth, and to those who were harmed by evil. Letter 246 describes a hypothetical confrontation between a hypothetical Ring-bearing Gandalf and Sauron: Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. For example, Beregond is reprimanded for leaving his post but is assigned to a position of honor by Aragorn in recognition of why he disobeyed. They sang in the Music or the Ainur and were commanders of Morgoth's armies. Sauron would then have suspended his campaign against Minas Tirith, and instead sent his armies north-west, through Rohan towards Isengard. Two Blue Wizards went with Saruman into the East. We'll probably never know. 2 What would happen if Gandalf had the ring? The one, and the nine created fearful dominance, fraught with majesty, and terror. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Much of Sarumans history in the Second Age is mysterious. Gandalf had the last one, though Im not sure anyone but Cirdan, Himself, and Elrond and Galadriel knew it. New Movie News, Movie Trailers & upcoming Movie Reviews, Saruman Gaining the One Ring Would Have Doomed Middle-earth Even Faster, Thranduil Was a Jerk - But Lord of the Rings' Only Dark Elf Was Actually Evil, How Morgoth Created Glaurung and The Lord of the Rings' Dragons, REVIEW: Frank Miller Presents Ancient Enemies: The Djinni #1 Crafts a Compelling Origin Story, REVIEW: DC's Shazam! Indeed, Saruman needed no ring to become enslaved. If any being who had the power to use the Ring to its full potential had gotten ahold of it, that being would have been able to easily take on Sauron. Also, it says in the book that the Nazgul went to Isengard demanding news of the ring and if Sauraman had the ring, Sauraman said if I had the ring you would bow down to me and call me lord I think Saruman would've won if he captured the ring. Here's a new theory concerning Saruman and Grima. Answer (1 of 13): If Saruman acquired the One Ring and had time to learn to use it, then he would go to war against Sauron. Even if Saruman won this hypothetical battle, it would be ultimately irrelevant. :)#LordoftheRingsWhatIf #Saruman #WhatIfSaruman How could Sauron defeat Saruman, or even pay him a visit if he's disembodied? Whats the threshold of power for a wielder of the one ring to defeat Sauron? Ultimately, we dont know who the Stranger is, aside from being an Istar, or a wizard. You must log in or register to reply here. This perfectly explained how the Ring could have gotten from Sauron to Isildur to Gollum to . If he didn't get the Truth from Saruman, he could get it from the halflings and if they were dead due to Saruman, capture and question any of Saruman's orcs or men roaming between Isengard and the Black Gate. Saruman also experimented with the making of a Ring of his own. It was never explained how, but the Elves found a way to block Saurons sight from their Rings. *Originally posted by Triskadecamus * By this Tolkien shows that disobedience for good reasons has merit. He will likely go through some things, but that would mean the Gandalf we meet in the Second Age is largely the same as the Gandalf in the Third Age. These cookies ensure basic functionalities and security features of the website, anonymously. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? These cookies track visitors across websites and collect information to provide customized ads. However, Saruman had planned his rise to power much earlier than that. That success would be the usual bitter victory, though, because first the new wielder of the ring would need to build his own power, and learn the mastery of the ring. He had already copied Sauron in every other aspect. You are using an out of date browser. It was literally Sauron's essence made into an inanimate object. Science Fiction & Fantasy Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for science fiction and fantasy enthusiasts. He would have learned what very few people knew - the actual objective of the Quest of the Ring, that it was being taken to Mt. This mod, although it doesn't add a new staff to the game, creates a unique design for all of the Skyrim staves. Saruman wasnt an elf, or even a man. If we have not credited an artist, it is because we could not find an owner of the art. In The Lord of the Rings, the palantri corrupt nearly all who use them. Does it shoot bolts of kickarse out of it's hilt? In those, Saruman appears to harness the weather to command the snowstorm on the pass of Caradhras that dramatically halts the progress of the Fellowship. He says: "Even reckoned as a lord and captain Saruman has grown very strong Saruman also had a mind to capture the Ring for himself [Sauron] now has Isengard to fear as well as Minas Tirith" The word "fear" seems important here. It only takes a minute to sign up. What did Tolkien originally write? To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Heck, the great among the Elves, or even Aragorn, were considered very credible threats by Sauron. Since Sauruman was once justly revered as among the great, by such as Elrond, and even Gandalf, it seems that he might well have been able to use the ring against Sauron successfully. Saruman wants to be Sauron's . Although they did oppose the will of Sauron, while he did not have the one, they were still subject to his will, if he regained it, and all that had been done with them would be revealed. Why didn't they bring the Ring to Valinor? The Ring still wants to be with its true master. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. On the other hand, if the Stranger is Saruman, consider that journey and how it makes his transformation all the more tragic. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. We dont know any details about his activities in Rhn or his other easterly travels. Performance cookies are used to understand and analyze the key performance indexes of the website which helps in delivering a better user experience for the visitors. He aided Frodo but he did not save him or the Quest from certain ruin as Eomer did by attacking the orc band. . Gandalf feared the power the ring would give him. Naruto turned, and saw a Wizard in all white and an Elven Lady behind him. Saruman volunteered. As Sauron once was, Saruman, a Maia of Aule, became absorbed in Ring-lore as he studied Sauron's evil works. He concealed his identity and ran away whenever he was confronted. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. "Greetings, Naruto Wraithslayer, wielder of the Faerdagnir. Frodo was a hobbit with one companion, in the heart of Sauron's realm. It may not display this or other websites correctly. "In a hole in the ground there lived a rabbit? So it is my assumption that Saruman wanted the One Ring so he could forge his own Ring of Power. Tolkien Blog - by Michael Martinez Lots of great, exclusive content, even discounts on our original merch! He disobeyed his king but he held his loyalty to his people and by doing so he inadvertently saved Middle-Earth. What would have happened if Saruman got the ring? By this Tolkien shows that disobedience for good reasons has merit. The cookie is set by the GDPR Cookie Consent plugin and is used to store whether or not user has consented to the use of cookies. Other powerul magic users such as Galadriel, Gandalf & Saruman can use the Ring to increase their power as that is what it was forged by Sauron to do, but it will never truly be completely under their will because Sauron's evil will already exists in the Ring. Imagine that, after breaking of Fellowship, Saruman`s Uruk-Hai capture Frodo and bring him, with the ring, to Isengard. It does not store any personal data. By the time that happened, little would be left but the ruins of the world in the aftermath of Saurons great war to regain the ring. Is Gandalf the Gray's power actually limited or did he merely promise to not use it? In the Silmarillion we have Iluvatar's strongest creation falling from grace.In many ways Saruman's fall is the 3rd Age equivalent. Sauron was not a run of the mill foe and an ordinary blade wielded by an ordinary man would not have sufficed. Mostly, though, he most enjoys writing about Star Wars. Sarumaon told Gandalf that a new power was rising and noone could srand and therefore they should join that power. Why Did Eru Give Men The Gift Of Death And Not to The Elves too? Sauron was the Dark Lord in The Lord of the Rings saga, written by J.R.R. its forging) to end (the . Do you want to be the first who gets the news directly to your mailbox? He would simply wait and let the Ring do what it was made to do. However, that's not the most likely scenario. Middle-earth & J.R.R. Tolkiens complex writings and retcons dont reveal a crystal-clear answer about Saruman arriving first, but if you go by The Silmarillion, Saruman did. Amy Ratcliffe is the Editor-in-Chief for Nerdist and the author ofStar Wars: Women of the Galaxy, The Art of Star Wars: Galaxys Edge, The Jedi Mind, and more. Sorry, memory fails me ATM. After a comment from Gimli, Gandalf adds: "But Isengard cannot fight Mordor, unless Saruman first obtains the Ring. I don't think it would have made Saruman invincible, and, after all, he still would still have had to contend for instance with Treebeard and the Ents, as well as with Sauron. I also assume that Sauron would have eventually won the war. You would have both Saruman and Sauron focused in the same area and it is very unlikely Frodo would have escaped that level of scrutiny even with Gollum leading him on secret paths. It wasn't really a surprise. When Gandalf meets Saruman in Orthanc, he notices that Saruman is wearing a ring. Meanwhile, Gandalf kept an eye on Bilbo and noticed that he was not aging. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. I mean, he was supposed to be powerful ANYWAY was he not? We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. When Gandalf returned and revealed himself to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas in Fangorn he said something to the effect of "in a way I'm now Saruman, but you can keep calling me Gandalf." I dont find it terribly exciting that Gandalf arrived in Middle-earth and was good from the beginning (with Noris help). [ST:TNG] The First Duty what if there had been no accident? On the other hand, Sauron was not invincible either. So, it seems Sauron is not invincible, even with the ring, much less against it. The Mystics, believing the Stranger is Sauron, tell him he must go to Rhn to fully explore his powers. You must log in or register to reply here. He sees the Dark Lord as a rival and also an aspiration. We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup, Latest Blog Post: Jacks Bad Movies Black Adam (2022). Still it was a meritorious disobedience and worthy of praise. With possession of the one ring he would have replaced Sauron (would have wiped him out entirely). The power they have is to give stature to the wearer in the minds of others, and to enhance the emotional strength of the wearer, in the manner desired by their maker. A Saruman prequel, an Aragorn spin-off and a Gandalf v the Necromancer thriller could all lead up to the fateful hunt of Gollum and the events immediately preceding the Lord of the Rings (with . What money is available for senior citizens? What is the significance of Saruman's Ring? He reasoned that his total control of Middle . But if The Rings of Power already called dibs on Gandalf's origins, there's always the tale of what the grey wizard got up to between The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, a story so worthwhile . Narsil was made by the dwarves not elves. All of Saruman's scheming nearly came to fruition in The Two Towers. By the time of The Lord of the Rings, Saruman has become jealous of Sauron's power (and Gandalf's too). Saruman is one of few "grey" characters in the books, meaning he's neither gone fully evil or good. He would have been able to control more people, and he would have had a much easier time dominating their wills. If he could obtain or recreate the One Ring for himself, he would be able to rule Middle-earth just like Sauron did. The one ring would have made him more like what he was before he left on his mission to middle-earth, only corrupted and evil. They'd be capable of wielding it and would be a threat to Sauron, though Sauron would probably win in the end as The Ring was only . Either way, the battle between them would have been a catastrophic lose-lose situation for everyone. vegan) just to try it, does this inconvenience the caterers and staff? The Silmarillion says Saruman was the eldest Istari and came first. Sauron would also realize the captured Halflings did not have the Ring so all the doubt surrounding Aragorn having it would be absent. Is the man a thousand times stronger than a normal man? With the more powerful becoming all the more corrupted. Unfortunately, Sauron had got on the wrong side of a particularly powerful race: the Nmenreans.The isle of Nmenr was a realm of men that sat apart from Middle-earth and those who lived there were more powerful than the men seen elsewhere in The Lord of . Sauron was stronger than Gandalf the Grey, but . Sauron may not learn the true goal of the Ringbearer but he would know that the ringbearer was most likely near or nearing his borders. A capable bearer would have all that power, plus whatever native power he or she had to begin with. Privacy Policy. It didn't have to shoot out lighting bolts to be an uber blade. The situation in The Lord of the Rings was pretty dire. A normal man with a normal sword would probably have failed miserably even if he had got in the lucky hit. The three created majesty of a different sort, and magnified the loyalty of those who already were loyal, rather than coercing by fear. And in The Rings of Power, when the mystics realized their error, they said the Stranger is the Istarnot one of the Istari, the Istar, as if only one is present in Middle-earth right now. . Saruman with the Ring would presumably have tried to do what Tolkien says Galadriel or Gandalf might have done, if they have succumbed to the temptation of accepting the Ring: "they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force." JavaScript is disabled. He also used his Palantir to spy on Sauron. In what way? Doom. Maybe, though i dont know that much about Sauman's power and. In any event, a confrontation between Saruman and Sauron seems as though it would not be a closely fought as the one between Gandalf and Sauron described above; Gandalf was able to cast-out Saruman, so it seems as though Sauron would have more easily had the upper-hand in such a contest. What happens next would depend on Sauron himself; whether he would seek to retake the Ring immediately; whether he would visit Saruman himself or send a lesser servant. Also there is the forest of Fangorn between them I think. Yet, he had something that needed to be done first. 5 Who controlled the Seeing Stone of Minas Anor? Would he have given the Ring back to Sauron or would he have kept the ring and contested Sauron for power over Middle-earth? This just had to be the best designed set, even better than the 2017 UCS Millennium Falcon! The heroes in The Lord of the Rings did everything to keep the One Ring away from Sauron, but what would have happened if Saruman had gotten it? The Palantri. That was a lucky hitand did you perhaps notice that Sauron was more or less single-handedly beating the entire Last Alliance army at that point? We know of his ultimate betrayal against Middle-earth, maybe especially against his fellow Wizards and the Valar. *shrugs*. We look at sections of The Lord of the Rings and Tolkien's letters to answer the question - what would happen if Sauron reclaimed The One Ring? He wanted the One Ring. Now, consider Saruman. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Analytics". Gandalf found out that Saruman had abandoned his mission when the White Wizard asked him to join forces with Sauron. In Tolkiens writings, they came across the sea. After all, he was extremely powerful in his own right. Saruman would have made a tasty little morsel for Sauron. We dont know if the Stranger will make it to his destination and the show could certainly deviate from lore or invent new history ( as it has done already). Please don't forget to subscribe to stay up to date with all future content! He definitely volunteered to go to Middle-earth first. They could not fight him, since it was under Saurons power they were made, but they did distract him - Sauron was concentrating his sight and attantion upon Rivendell and Lothlorien. And if the hearts of men were not so easily tainted, the Ringwraiths might never have been brought into being. All betting content is intended for an . Posted September 4, 2007. mysticalblues said: My roommate met someone last week that had a ring that she got in St. Thomas. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Tolkien edited by Christopher Tolkien. Forces from Mordor and Rhun would have been sent to fight their way through Rohan, leaving Minas Tirith undefeated to the south. At the same time, most of the Elves were leaving Middle-earth, and Saruman betrayed everyone and joined Sauron. Luckily, Gandalf refused, and the rest of the trilogy didn't play out in Saruman's favor. The Witch-king of Angmar was the leader of the Nazgl, or Ringwraiths, and the right-hand man of Sauron through much of the Second and Third Ages of . Saruman was a wizard and warlord, in a fortress controlled by himself, garrisoned by orcs and men, and separated from Mordor by regions which were not Sauron-friendly. Gandalf and Galadriel both seem to think that they could take the One, and replace Sauron - if they can so could Saruman. If Saruman masters the ring, he will have a chance of defeating Sauron. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. We don't know enough about the powers of the Ring, in the hands of an ambitious wizard how it might have worked as a "devastating weapon" (Letter 246), how, as a symbol, it might in Saruman's hands have affected Sauron's servants and vassals. Galadriel) might have been able to master the ring. However, Gandalf knew that if he being an extremely powerful Maiar just like Sauron had taken the One Ring, he would become no different than the Dark Lord. Nazgul were formidable opponants, under the right circumstances. He also had control of the nine kings and such or was supposed to, although didn't Elrond get a ring yet was present at the battle? If he could obtain or recreate the One Ring for himself, he would be able to rule Middle-earth just like Sauron did. *shrugs*. To a lesser degree Faramir's disobedience also saved the Quest. What can a lawyer do if the client wants him to be acquitted of everything despite serious evidence? The Vanyar were one of the tribes/families of the elves. Feel free to contact him by email at hawkins.blake12@gmail.com, or find him on Facebook. Saruman was most skilled in Ring Lore, save Sauron. That makes Gandalf more or less like we know him from The Lord of the Rings, thousands of years in the future. Does he use his great voice, enhanced by the One to subjugate the free peoples. In Unfinished Tales, J.R.R. But if only one Istar has come to Middle-earth so far, Saruman is a strong candidate. As mentioned, the Valar sent the Istari (who are Maiar spirits) to Middle-earth. He also used his Palantir to spy on Sauron. The whole premise of The Lord of the Rings was to keep the One Ring (which existed for a long time) away from the Dark Lord Sauron. The content on this site is for entertainment and educational purposes only. I suspect that most of us think Saruman's treachery is so fundamental to Lord of the Rings, that it is almost impossible to imagine the epic without it. By the time we meet Saruman in The Lord of the Rings, hes up to no good. That's when the Rohirrim attacked, allowing the Hobbits to escape into Fangorn forest. " The Hunt for the Ring " is a chapter in Unfinished Tales, a posthumously published work of J.R.R. But it will still never truly be his & he will have to continually fight to dominate it as the One Ring wants to return to its master, who cannot be banished until the Ring is destroyed. Balrogs are intelligent sentient beings. Its probably been done already, and if so I apologize, but: If Saruman had gotten his greedy lil mitts on the one ring, would he have been able to set himself up as a new dark lord (or however they call themselves)? He is Maiar. Had Isuldur done the wise thing, and pitched that sucker in the crack of doom, that would have been it. He fought Uruk-hai (who had captured Merry and Pippin thinking they were Frodo) and were enroute to Isengard. In his mind, it was the only logical thing to do, and he offered Gandalf a place by his side. The Rings of Power finale took viewers on a ride with solved mysteries, reunions, and goodbyes. In fact, as recent graduate of Greensboro College's honors program, Blake wrote his thesis on Star Wars and its religious connections. What would happen if Gandalf had the ring? That is, however, a legitimate concern when entering any fight: any weaponry you wield may be captured and used against you. Thus, the power of the Ring is both direct (like the power of a weapon) and symbolic (like the power of a cult object). It's interesting here that since both Sauron and Saruman were in origin Maiar of Aule, they may be expected to have some knowledge of each other, and that they would have some idea of each other's strengths and weaknesses. It was his own and under his will. )https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCScfG2CfbSh_LUzkGJ_p-aAHistory of Dragon Ball - (For all things Dragon Ball! Saruman arrived in Middle-earth midway through the Third Age, along with Gandalf and Radagast. If he followed the strategy I've mentioned, his fighters would have to deal with the feisty Rohirrim, and would also run the risk of a flank attack from Gondor, before they could even get near Isengard. A couple of points to add to the excellent arguments thus far: This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. There's a moment near the end of The Two Towers when one of the Nazgul comes literally within arms' reach of the Ring.It happens in the ruined city of Osgiliath. You have different tier options between $2 - $250, which can get you everything from exclusive access to upcoming videos, shoutouts, discounts, access to original artwork, producer credits on productions etc. Whether he judged correctly is another matter, but I would expect it to be a contest. Who controlled the Seeing Stone of Minas Anor? Would the One Ring even work for anyone but Sauron? It's much more likely that Saruman would have used the One Ring for himself and tried to claim Middle-earth as his own. And they are similar to, if slightly less powerful than, the Maiar? The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Other. The stone had a green/purple coloring. The question of what Saruman would have done therefore becomes moot since it seems inevitable that Sauron would have been the stronger.